A can of something ugly and beautiful
Okay, I know I'm opening up a can of something potentially ugly--but also potentially very, very beautiful with this post. So many of my conversations as of late have been about the issue of abortion, pro-choice, child's rights, parental rights, adoption, etc., primarily as a result of our recent Presidential election. And . . . I'm glad. As long as we can keep the conversation loving, with respect to one another, and understanding of the worldview from which each of us comes, this will be good.
So right up front . . . I'm writing (and living), to the best of my ability, as a follower of Jesus. Albeit flawed and in process and flatout in error at times. Fair enough.
The question I want to raise is this: Can a follower of Jesus be pro-choice? And when I say pro-choice I mean in support of a mother's right to abort her baby through the third trimester (that is the issue that is politically on the table).
As a follower of Jesus, I hold God's Word, God's will, as revealed in the Bible as the highest authority for my life. Sooo, I'm going to quote some Scripture, not as a redneck Bible thumper, but as the guidebook for my life.
Psalm 139:13-16
You (refering to God) made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb (emphasis mine). Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous--how well I know it. You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb (emphasis mine). You saw me before I was born (once again, emphasis mine). Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed (you guessed it--emphasis mine).
Every single day in the United States of America, nearly 4,000 abortions are performed. That comes out to nearly 1.4 million abortions per year. When you add in the number globally it is virtually too much to comprehend.
But what about the life of the mother? What if she was raped? What if she is in danger? Okay, for argument's sake, let's say that we give those mothers "choice." For argument's sake . . . we give them the right to choose. Do you know how many abortions we would still have in the USA every day? Nearly 4,000!!! Virtually ALL abortions performed are what is termed "abortions of convenience." I'm not demeaning anyone by that phrase--it is simply used to delineate abortions that are not performed as a result of a health issue for mom or an issue of rape.
Sooo, I'll leave my post here for now and look forward to hearing from you and dialoging with you.
So right up front . . . I'm writing (and living), to the best of my ability, as a follower of Jesus. Albeit flawed and in process and flatout in error at times. Fair enough.
The question I want to raise is this: Can a follower of Jesus be pro-choice? And when I say pro-choice I mean in support of a mother's right to abort her baby through the third trimester (that is the issue that is politically on the table).
As a follower of Jesus, I hold God's Word, God's will, as revealed in the Bible as the highest authority for my life. Sooo, I'm going to quote some Scripture, not as a redneck Bible thumper, but as the guidebook for my life.
Psalm 139:13-16
You (refering to God) made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb (emphasis mine). Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous--how well I know it. You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb (emphasis mine). You saw me before I was born (once again, emphasis mine). Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed (you guessed it--emphasis mine).
Every single day in the United States of America, nearly 4,000 abortions are performed. That comes out to nearly 1.4 million abortions per year. When you add in the number globally it is virtually too much to comprehend.
But what about the life of the mother? What if she was raped? What if she is in danger? Okay, for argument's sake, let's say that we give those mothers "choice." For argument's sake . . . we give them the right to choose. Do you know how many abortions we would still have in the USA every day? Nearly 4,000!!! Virtually ALL abortions performed are what is termed "abortions of convenience." I'm not demeaning anyone by that phrase--it is simply used to delineate abortions that are not performed as a result of a health issue for mom or an issue of rape.
Sooo, I'll leave my post here for now and look forward to hearing from you and dialoging with you.
posted by Greg Nettle at 3:02 PM
13 Comments:
With respect to understanding each others viewpoint, here goes. I hear you loud & clear- 1.4 million abortions every day. That's a lot of abortions. Now translate that to 1.4 million unwanted children. While many people are looking to adopt for one reason or another, 1.4 million are not stepping up to the plate everyday to say that they will personally be resposible for an unwanted child. I know what it is to be an unwanted child. I can tell you what it is like to struggle without the foundation necessary to become a confident, well-rounded and successful adult. Being a system kid is not the way a child should grow up. It is not a childhood I would wish on anyone. While adoption is an option, it is NOT the end all be all. The adoption system is not equipped to handle such a situation. It is doing the best it can but it is a system that is fundametally flawed. This nation badly needs adoption reform- however that is better left for another comment. I am not saying that I think abortion is right and I do not believe that any abortion is convenient. I just don't think we should be so quick to judge...
Oh and yes, I DO believe that one can be pro-choice and a christian.
I believe that every life God creates (at conception) deserves to be lived....He gives it a purpose. He has his fingerprints all over it. The real issue is not about abortion. The real issue is that we don't respect who we are - let alone the unborn, the elderly, the unlovely, the undesirable, the unclean. If we were able to see ourselves as God sees us, just a little bit, we wouldn't get ourselves into situations where we have to make the horrible decision to abort, or surrender a child to adoption, or marry someone we're not sure we want to marry, or raise a child on our own. But, I believe that God brings all things to GOOD - in His own time - if we're willing to let Him. Just ask Elijah.
Has the above "anonymous" ever been on an adoption wait list? Obviously, there are multitudes of people that are stepping up to the plate to be personally responsible for an unwanted child. The problem being that the 1.4 million abortions have somewhat shortened the list of available children. A simple case of supply and demand. I was adopted 42 years ago and the entire process took my parents around 3 months and only cost them about $200.00. Today the wait can be years and can cost in the tens of thousands. 42 years ago, abortions were difficult to obtain. Today, very easy. Not to difficult to do the math, is it? Is the adoption system flawed? Probably. But most systems are. That should never be the reason for us to stop doing the right thing!
You're right.....a can of worms for sure....but what isn't? In a nut shell, if we do what Jesus would have done...
we wouldn't judge
we wouldn't debate
we wouldn't gloat
I guess we would just love.
I am not saying I am not doing these things (I am!) I AM so frustrated and want so badly to do the right thing....the thing that Jesus wants me to do....
I think it's so simple and yet so hard.....to just be quiet....and to love...in His name.
LINDY
I am pro life, but, I also feel, that we can't legislate morals. It has to start with self. I believe every life God has created is a life to be lived, but, even if we band abortion, it isn't going to change the heart of people. Only God can do that. I feel, education and prayer will be the only thing to make the changes this country needs. I feel we should stand up for what we believe in by voting for politicians that have the morals God would want them to have but, we also need to pray for those who don't and leave it to God to change the hearts and minds of the people in America.
What if the question were written-Can a follower of Jesus be pro-"sin"? "Sin" being any of the sin areas of our life that we are unable or unwilling to surrender. The foundation of our belief is that we are saved by grace through faith. This begins with a confession of faith. It is followed by repentance and baptism. Yet, I'm challenged by areas of the New Testament that seem to teach us that many who call themselves Christian will not enter Heaven. What's that about? It seems like a key is to have a posture of obedience and surrender, where a person perpetually moves toward Christ. Can sin be evidence of a lack of true faith which prevents us from moving toward Christ? If faith is the key to salvation, how can we test ourselves to make sure we are in the faith? Perhaps the previous poster has it right. Do we love God, do we love others, and is our love bearing fruit?
Let me start out by saying that I am 100% pro-life. Now, that being said, there is something that I think the first couple of people who posted about adoption are missing. If virtually all of the 4,000 abortions performed daily are termed "abortions of convenience" then these are logically not cases of rape or cases in which the mother's life or health is in danger. So, what is the answer if abortions are wrong and adoption is flawed? KEEP YOUR BABY! Then we won't have 4,000 abortions OR 4,000 babies in the system each day! "Abortion of convenience" would lead one to believe that these women CHOSE to have sex. Thus, they must have known somewhere within themselves that a baby was a possibility. After all, the main reason for sex is reproduction (Scientifically speaking). So, if you are a high school teen - make it work. If you are a single woman - make it work. If you are poor - make it work. If you are afraid of judgement by family and friends - make it work. Whatever your individual reason may be - make it work. Pray about it. I believe that God will help us if we ask for it...the Bible says He will! So pray...ask Him for forgiveness, for the strength and wisdom to raise the child, and in the end I believe most would be better for it. Certainly the child would be better for it, as it will be ALIVE. Pray that God will lead you to employment if you're the woman who is poor...pray that God will change the hearts of those who judge you if you are the woman being judged...pray that God will give you the strength, courage and ability to graduate if you are the high school teen. We have to face the consequences of our actions, and all too often abortions are the easy way out. I'm not on any kind of a high horse here - I admit that I had premarital sex, with my high school boyfriend, with my college boyfriend, and now I'm married and I'm sorry for it. But sex results, often, in pregnancy. So, to me, this is part of the solution. Keep the babies!
My wife (then girlfiend) worked at the rape crisis intervention center in columbus. That is a technical set of words that mean she was there in the hospital to listen to and council women who had just been raped. I can tell you first hand (actually second) that the conversations were haunting, gave my wife nightmares for years. I only heard enough to comfort her after one of the sessions she was in. The trauma to the women, both physical and mental is unimaginable. The burden that the victim of that crime must carry is more than anyone should have to shoulder. In the cases of rape/incest I personally feel that there should be a choice. But to understand that choice you must put the decision into context. Some victims can come full circle, accept what has happened as best as they can, and survive and even thrive with the lifelong memory of that event. Others arent as able to cope, they never move on only adapt to a new set of rules, trust, friendship, intimacy, all of them change. Having a child as a result of that is like salt on the wound for some. Others the child will be a blessing. The hard thing is there are so many parts to this equation, but usually the ones who are trying to make the answer arent the ones who have lived the question.
OK, I am decidedly Pro Life, but lets play devils advocate for a moment here.
The whole Pro Life movement in the political sphere has gotten so hot and I think evangelicals are putting their faith in politics, and not in God in the matter. Does God ever tell us "trust the political system and legislate my beliefs?"
When we were under Clinton abortion dropped precipitously. I believe it is because under Democrats poverty is not a prevalent (a little over simplified, but for the sake of thsi discussion. Yes, people other then the poor get abortions, but it is more prevalent among them then any other demograph). Will Obama empower the poor with more social programs, welfare to work programs and what not? Of course he will, it will be one of the first things he does.
I believe that being pro life, and working on behalf of the poor go hand in hand. The better off a person is economically will always have some factor in the question of keeping the baby, or aborting.
Can the goverment poor billions into social programs forever...no. What does that mean for us? It means Get the Church in Gear and GET NECK DEEP IN POVERTY and share some hope!
Did any of you know that many insurance companies pay for abortions but does not pay for birth control????
Also if cases of rape or other misfortunate sexually encounters that a person can within 36 hours of that encounter take dosage of birth control pills that PREVENTS an egg and sperm from joining together. This would take away any need for diliberating on abortions for rape victims since this could prevent any pregnacy when the rape occurs.
I also dont think people should keep an unwanted/unplanned child. Our system is full of unfit parents abusing or negilenting children in this country. Look at the number of "older" children in foster homes. There are a lot of people who want to adopt a new born baby and raise them in a loving caring home. Unfortunately our systems makes it so difficult that many people send over 20k to adopt a new born oversees.
We, american people, need to step up and focus on "how" to change our system. It is easy to discuss it but that doesn't change anything. How many of us want to spend our couples of hours at night after the kids are in bed and dishes done writing letters to our legisilature or making phones calls or volunteering for politicians willing to speak for our beliefs????
Nadine
Greg's question was "Can a follower of Jesus be pro-choice?" I'm going to answer this question with a no, and here is why.
I've always been told that the Bible tells us that in God's eyes, all sin is equal. So God is equally hurt to see us aborting babies, feeding on gossip about those around us, desperately coveting our neighbors possessions, commiting adultery, stealing, etc. With this in mind, I don't think a single one of us would say that as a Christian, it would be okay to say "I understand that God doesn't want me to gossip, but for personal reasons right now I think it's ok." Or, "I know that it breaks God's heart if I cheat on my wife, but just this one time, I think it is justified." Or, "Man, I know that one of God's Commandments is that I should not steal. But I just have to have those new shoes and I can't pay for them, so just this one time it's okay." Am I making sense? We know not to ignore all of these laws from God. God tells us that all of these things are wrong. We understand that, and I think that we also understand that we can't make an acception to those things without deliberately not following Jesus. So bearing in mind that sins are equal, how could one argue that you could be pro-choice and still be following Jesus? Greg quoted a verse that speaks to the contrary. A Commandment is "Thou shalt not kill." To me, it's clear from my other examples that to follow Jesus, you can't knowingly make an exception for yourself or for society to any of God's laws. And I know we sin every day. We break God's heart everyday. But isn't there a difference here? Between deliberately sinning and commiting the mostly unintentional sins we do every day without thinking? To intentionally get an abortion is no different to God than intentionally stealing, intentionally commiting adultry, etc. So how can someone justify viewing abortion as as somehow different than everything else He tells us?
Absolutely Jesus followers should be "pro" choice". We have the free will to make the right (pro) choices or the wrong (con) ones. If one is unwilling to take on the responsibility of possibly having a baby, then all one needs to do is just be pro-choice and choose not have sex. It's quite simple, really. In 6,000 years, there has only been one documented case of an abstinent woman conceiving a child. And besides, Jesus followers are commanded to give up living for themselves....
As far as the subject of rape...I minister down at the Stark County Jail every other weekend. Here, I met a woman whose marriage was on the brink of disaster. This woman told me about her life and how she had been raped and decided to have the baby. She thought her husband would hate her and divorce her for keeping the baby, which is what HER family and friends told him to do! He almost did...until he held the baby in his arms. That baby was the miracle that saved their marriage. She told me how he saw HER in the baby, and that the baby is his because he loves HER she played a part in its creation (and it's a BEAUTIFUL baby!...mom's really pretty, too) and he cannot let THEIR baby grow up without a real dad.
We can banter all day about whether or not who can do what. A lot of it is "rationalizing", and I always tell my husband, "If you have to talk yourself into our out of it, you're really trying to talk your way out of making a bad decision and you know it." A lot of people don't like what God has to say about certain things, so they make up all kinds of philosophies about this n that n the other. God doesn't play games like that.
It's not whether or not WE say we're Christ followers...it's all about whether or not HE does.
I'd also like to add this testimony:
My sister was born to my mother when my mom was close to 40, which constitutes a higher-risk pregnancy. My mom's body was literally trying to kill my unborn sister as a foreign object. There were many serious complications. The doctors urged my mother to terminate the pregnancy because they said that even if the baby did survive, it would have Downs Syndrome. They were 100% sure. At every doctor visit she was told she should seriously consider an abortion for many health reasons.
Well, my sister was born right on time, perfectly healthy and perfectly fine. In fact, she seems to be the ONLY normal one in the family! She has her Associates in Criminal Justice and is now studying something else at OSU (Go Bucks!)
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